DiversifyHER

EP 50: How Lifting The Bottom Lifts Us All with LaChaun Banks

• Season 5 • Episode 1

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Listen as Raven Heyward, founder and host of DiversifyHER, converses with LaChaun J. Banks a nationally recognized leader in equitable economic development, inclusive growth, and cross-sector collaboration. LaChaun is a Professor of Practice at UNC Kenan-Flagler Business School, where she teaches Markets, Government, and Sustainable Growth, and a research fellow at the Kenan Institute of Private Enterprise, contributing to the American Growth Project on place-based economic growth. She previously held senior leadership roles at Harvard Kennedy School, including serving as the inaugural Director for Equity and Inclusion at the Ash Center and the Bloomberg Harvard City Leadership Initiative, where she co-created the City Leader Guide for Equitable Economic Development now used by city leaders nationwide. With experience spanning academia, government, and the private sector, LaChaun has advised senior public officials, led multimillion-dollar initiatives, and helped shape frameworks that move equity from theory into practice, offering powerful insights on leadership, strategy, and building economies that work for everyone.

Connect with Professor Banks!

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lachaun-banks-3a201721/

SPEAKER_01:

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Diversify Her Podcast. I'm your host, Raven Hayward, and today I'm elated to have Ms. LaShawn Banks. She is a seasoned leader in economic development, equity, and public-private collaboration, and currently serving as a professor of practice at UNC Kenan Fogler Business School, where she teaches markets, governments, and sustainable growth. She is also a research fellow at Kenan Institute of Private Enterprise, contributing to the American Growth Project on Place-based Economic Growth. Previously, she held leadership roles at Harvard Kennedy School, including serving as the inaugural director of equity and inclusion at the Ash Center and the Bloomberg-Harvard City Leadership Initiative, where she co-created the City Leader Guide for Equitable Economic Development. Her career spans academia, government, and the private sector, with extensive experience managing large cross-sector initiatives, multi-million dollar budgets, and national city networks. She holds a BA from UNC Chapel Hill, an MBA from Keenan Fagler, and an MBA from Harvard Kennedy School. And she also graduated from the same high school as me in Lowe in Raleigh, North Carolina. I want to thank you so much for coming on my podcast today. How are you doing? Of course, I'm super excited about this episode, especially with us being in the new year and me hearing your testimony before. I would just love for you to have the platform to share it again and so my guests can hear it. So I would love for you to just start by sharing your journey as to how you got to where you are today.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, definitely. Well, as you mentioned, I did graduate from Enlo High School. Um, we um moved around quite a bit when I was younger, and so I started at Enlo, but I also graduated at Enlo. But in between, we did lose our home. So um we were homeless at one point, and so I had to um go to a different school up in Virginia. And um I went to Maury High School, and then we came back and I ended up going to Broughton high school for a little bit, hated it, so I petitioned to go back to Inlo High School. So it's kind of like bookends. I started there and I got to finish there. But as you can imagine, moving around so much, my grades were not good. I think I graduated with a 1.8 GBA, barely graduated high school. So college wasn't really an option. Neither of my parents went to college. My dad has um an 11th grade education, even though he stopped at 10th, and my mom had me right after high school. So I ended up enrolling in Wake Tech and working multiple jobs, and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, but I just knew I didn't want to be poor. I had a champagne taste on a beer budget, and I really wanted to make an impact. And so business has always attracted me to it, and I love entrepreneurship, and even with the current climate we have and all of the tragic things happening and leadership, this is still a country where you can search for that American dream, and it may look different for different people. There are challenges, of course, with people that look like me or like you or brown, but there's still opportunity. And so I just wanted to grab onto whatever opportunity I could. So I started businesses when I was younger, and I said, I'm just gonna keep moving. And so um ended up being able to get into UNC through the CSTEP program, the Carolina Student Transfer Excellence Program, which took community college students transferring in to UNC with a good GPA. And so that's how I ended up going to UNC. And I majored in international studies with a concentration in global economics, trade, and development. And also as a side note, I did that major because I could not get into the business school at Keenan Flagler. At the time, they would not allow transfer students in because we didn't have the prerequisites. That has since changed, thank goodness. But I really did wanted to get my undergraduate in business, and I wasn't able to, but I'm really glad that I did that. That afforded me the opportunity to actually learn Asian business and management over in Hong Kong at the Chinese University of Hong Kong. So I got to study there for a little bit. And um ultimately I started working in economic development, and I did so because I said, you know, I really want to get out there and understand what these policies are that they say are good for us, but I've lived them and saw how they're not. And so where's this disconnect? Um, and at the same time, we all have to live, we all have to eat, right? So, how do people make their money? How does the government play a role in that? How does where you live contribute to how you're able to live, right? And so that's always been of interest to me. Started working in economic development, ended up getting my MBA from Kenan Flagler in the evening program, and then um started to manage a communities of practice with mayors who were also interested in economic development, but at a national scale. And so that's how I was able to go up to Harvard Kennedy School to work with mayor Steve Goldsmith and really move forward. What is equity in this field, right? What does that truly mean? And ended up getting my um MPA from Harvard Kennedy School. To be honest, I wasn't interested in any more schooling. Um, but when I was there, I was realizing there is just this huge intersection between business and government. And you can't have one without the other. And when I authored this guide on equitable economic development, that's why I said I really want to stay and understand public policy a little bit more. So I got my MPA. And then I took what I learned and what I've been practicing and doing and came to Keenan Flagler so that I could teach other students about this intersection of business and government.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, that is a beautiful testimony. And every time you hear it, I just I hear it, I'm just like, wow. So you are living proof that it does not matter where you came from, it's just your journey and really how committed you are to growth and to improvement. And you mentioned how government and business intersects and with you having those roles and also incorporating equity. What originally drew you to the economic development work? I know that you said you were looking at the policies and you'd lived through them, but is there a specific class or a specific moment where you kind of knew, okay, this is my calling?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I got a job as an economic development coordinator at NC Growth, which is part of the Kenan Institute. And we weren't even called NC Growth at the time. We were uh EDA, uh Economic Development Administration funded university center. And our goal was to provide good jobs and opportunities to people in rural areas. And I remember at the time, no one could really explain to me what economic development was. It was all these different ideas and different theories and different ways that people practiced economic development. And I remember thinking, I want to do this because I know what it's like to be poor. And so I can really relate to the people on the ground. And going out to my first rural community, and I was telling my story, um, someone checked me and said, Whoa, whoa, whoa, being poor in a city is not like being poor in a rural community. Um, and that's when it really hit me that this urban and rural divide is really key, and that what works sometimes in urban areas doesn't always work in rural areas. And so I would say it wasn't this one big thing, but gradually learning more about rural communities, what economic development is versus economic growth. I think we use these words interchangeably, and they're not. Economic growth is this quantitative, how many jobs are there? Um, what's the GDP? These numbers, and economic development is more of this qualitative change. Are people's quality of lives changing? Um, what is happening in their community? All growth isn't good growth. And so, how do you capture that? So I think just slowly getting into this field, I didn't realize how much I would love it. And then you throw the entrepreneurship piece in there. What does it look like to start a business in a food desert versus what does it look like to start a business in a um struggling neighborhood that's urban? And so I think seeing all these worlds come together is what really got me into this space of loving this economic growth and economic development and understanding that you can have both if you're intentional about it. And that's where the equity piece came in.

SPEAKER_01:

I really appreciate you breaking it down and explaining the economic growth versus the economic development, because that was going to be a follow-up question that I had with that. And so you mentioning that the equity component and how that's how you're able to have both. Are there any sort of beyond buzzwords, what equitable practice with those actually looks like? So, what are the actual conversations that are being had and what are some of the languages that are being used to articulate that?

SPEAKER_00:

So it's interesting that you bring that up because I teach that in class, but also in that city leader guide, define it. We use terminology a lot, and sometimes things can be buzzwords or even trigger words, right? People hear equity and they say, Oh my gosh, here we go again, you know, or they say, Don't touch a black woman's hair. That is, you know, how we be fair. And I'm like, it's so much more than that. But it's interesting because when I authored this City Leader Guide on Equitable Economic Development, it was published in 2020. And that was because mayors around the country were saying, oh no, you know, COVID's happened. We have Black Lives Matter, but we have the opportunity to rebuild our communities, and now maybe we can do it more intentionally in thinking about who has access to what. And so when I say equity, it is looking at these policies, these practices, the systems that are already in place. And do those systems have representatives on it that look like the communities that they're serving? And so that's what I mean when I say equity. And there are so many different ways to look at it. Conversations that I've had with cities, um housing trust funds, um, that was an issue that came up post-COVID quite a bit. A lot of cities received these ARP funds, the American Rescue Plan Act, and they had discretion at how they would use their funds. And so equity looks different depending on the historic context of cities. And so I would say there isn't a one size fits all, but I created this diagnostic tool, and I keep saying I, but it was a team of us. It wasn't just me. Um, we created this tool to say, okay, if we're serious about equity, let's do this economic scan to see where are we and where are we falling short? Is it in access to capital? Is it in entrepreneurship? Is it in how we do procurement? Now, I can say that a lot of cities jumped on this procurement bandwagon of thinking the only way we can have more equity is looking at our procurement policies. Now, that is critical and important, and that is a tangible way that you can share ownership, but it's not the only way. Um, I remember a city actually used some of their funding to um fund traffic violations because they were stopping a lot of people because that's how that city got revenue. And so if you think about it, the people they were stopping were people of color. And some folks could not afford these fines and fees, and so they would lose their driver's license. And that's directly associated with poverty and becoming homeless. If you can't have a driver's license, you can't drive to work. You can't drive to work, you don't have money, right? And so this city said we're going to start to fund some of these fines and fees. Now, that may be very controversial for folks at a political level, but if you think about it, they're saying that's the way that we can impact equity in our city, right? And so it isn't this one size fits all. It is really diagnosing what seriously is my issue in my area dealing with my historic context.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you hit on a lot of important points and what I feel that a lot of people confuse equity versus equality with, and it looks different and it's not all the same. And so especially with the climate that we're in today with our nation, how would you uh describe the importance of your work to those who may not understand? Or like you mentioned in the beginning, when people hear equity and they kind of roll their eyes and go, uh, here we go again, how do we continue to show that this is important work and these findings and everything that we're doing does have an impact in the long term?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, we can take it back to um Wu-Tang's um cream, cash rules, everything around me. And if we have a society where the have nots are growing and the haves are shrinking, regardless of what color you are, what race you are, what gender you are, you're gonna run into some challenges. And so it actually behooves everyone to make sure that we're lifting up the bottom. And it is not this altruistic argument, is more of an instrumentalist argument of you can do better when people around you are doing better. And so that's always what I like to talk about is, you know, is the importance of pulling people up that are at the bottom. And, you know, this is America. People have the bootstrap narrative of if you do it by yourself, you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you work hard enough. Um, but that's not always the case. There's so many barriers to doing that. So ultimately, it's about removing barriers for folks. And people also have this zero-sum game in their mind that if we help a certain group of people, it's gonna hurt another group of people. So I spent a lot of time talking about how lifting up a group is not actually harming another group. People talk about reducing this wealth gap or even reducing the racial wealth gap. And what I'm interested in is lifting up people at the bottom. I have no interest in taking away people, taking away from people at the top or always doing redistribution, but I am interested in removing barriers to allow people at the bottom this upward mobility that I feel that all people in America deserve. That's why people come here. They come here for opportunity. So we have to remove barriers to opportunity. Now, you know, people can talk about weeding out the good from the bad or the hard workers from the lazy, but I think we can't even have that discussion until we talk about removing barriers.

SPEAKER_01:

That's very important. And I think it's a refreshing way to look at it as well, because a lot of the time I feel that we often, you know, group these people in these categories, whether it's by race or by gender, or just by maybe abilities that they don't have or that they may have. And so I like how you mentioned or your thought processes from the bottom and lifting up. I think that's very imperative and important with this type of work. And for my listeners who may want to get into work like this or maybe a career path, what would you say are some strategic moves that they could make now or early in their careers that made the difference, that made the biggest difference for you?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, one of the things is even understanding place and where you are, understanding what does the system look like where you are, who pulls these levers? I'll give you an example about this government business intersection, and then I'll connect it back to a career path. Um, so the mayor of Newton, um, Massachusetts, who has since passed away, um, Seti Warren, who was the head of the Institute of Politics at Harvard Kennedy School. Um, I remember interviewing him and understanding what he did as mayor. And he said he wanted to understand what was holding people back. So he actually went to a neighborhood and interviewed a woman to say, you know, how come you are where you are and what is hindering you? And she said, You know, I want a better job, but I can't get a better job because the training I need is at a community college that doesn't have classes at night, but the classes they do have at night, I don't have transportation to get there. And then childcare is an issue. So as mayor, he knew that there were levers he could pull to reach people, such as transportation. What does the childcare system look like? And so he understood that as mayor, that there were things he could do. And I think we look beyond that and say, oh, people have to do for themselves. Well, where you live and where you are really impacts your ability to move up. And so understanding who holds what levers and what the system looks like can actually help you determine what path you want to take or where you want to go. And so I would say just even looking in your own backyard and say, hey, who controls what here? Um, maybe it's financial institutions. Maybe you say, hey, they play a critical role, which they do. And maybe that's an area that you want to go in. But even at financial institutions and banks, they do a lot of economic development. They do the um CRA initiatives, they deal a lot with new market tax credits and how subsidies can actually help businesses. And so in almost any of these spaces, you can find an economic development lens. But one of the things I would say is really try to understand systems and the system that you're in. And that can help when you start to look at where you want to be.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. I think that's also a really good point because especially now in the position that I'm in where I'm about to graduate and go on to work for a company. I think a lot of the times whenever we're doing research for our companies and prepping for interviews, we're realizing that maybe they have economic development initiatives or they have different areas that they're involved in that don't just only have to deal with the business themselves. And so I think that that's also a really cool and neat way to expand your knowledge on certain things and maybe see if you are interested in other areas that your job has to offer. And so with students and also just young professionals that may be recent grads, um, how do you feel that they influence economic power even before they're informal leadership roles?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think, you know, um it's the same how you are anywhere is how you are everywhere. And just the, you know, having this integrity and these core values, even that Keenan Flagler stands for, right? This inclusion, being able to practice that even at entry-level places, I think is really having an impact. Because people watch how you move. And if you're you if you're true to yourself, if you are really practicing this integrity, I think that has an impact that you may not initially see, but it does have an impact. And one thing I want to say too, that I wish someone would have told me um 20 years ago. I think a lot of times as grad as students that are about to graduate or looking for a job, and we think about equity, work, and inclusion, that it has to be this either-or. Either I can do this good work or I can go make a lot of money and work for the devil. It doesn't have to be this either-or, right? I'm a firm believer. I want to do good in the world, but I also don't want to be broke. And not only broke, I have a very nice lifestyle that I want to keep up, right? So it doesn't have to be either or. It doesn't have to be I only work here or I do good in the world. You can do good wherever you are. And so I don't want people to shy away, especially women and especially women of color, from taking jobs that pay very handsomely and thinking that you can't make a change there because you can make a change wherever you are. And sometimes it takes learning the system, it takes a year to be in, you know, investment banking and making good money, and then saying, oh, actually, there's some things that I can change in this system that could benefit a few more people. And so I would say don't shy away from we all have to eat. And so, you know, money is important, but don't think that it has to be this either-or because you can make a difference regardless of where you are.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you for that. And I think that's very inspiring and amazing to hear because especially as we are getting ready to graduate and thinking about the type of careers we want, but also the type of people we want to be. I think that's very important. And with me being in the Luther Hodges program at Keenan Fagler, and ultimately, you know, the mission and the goal for that program is at the intersection of business, government, and umprofits, but also wanting to do business for good. I think oftentimes history has shown, and you know, there may be certain leaders where they make a whole lot of money, but then you look and it's like, it's not necessarily the type of businessman or woman that I would want to be. And so with that, and you bring up a great point with the work that you've done and over your career, how have you stayed true to your values? And also, um, I don't know if you've ever dealt with imposter syndrome, but sometimes, you know, often only being the only woman in the room, or sometimes maybe the only person of color in the room, how have you dealt with that?

SPEAKER_00:

So one of the things that it may sound cheesy, I do, and I really believe it's helped. And I've heard of people say to do it is practicing mindfulness and spending these times alone with yourself. Because I think walking, I mean, I was at Harvard and, you know, I taught a few classes and seeing all these people that don't look like me questioning every single thing that comes out of my mouth. Of course, imposter syndrome is gonna come up. I'd be lying if I said I didn't. And it's not like it goes away. Like I don't do all this work, and then boom, I have no more imposter syndrome. It is so deeply rooted in what society has said that people who look like me should be. So everything is a battle, right? Everything is a battle every time I set foot somewhere and I want to teach, it's a battle, right? Some are easier than others, but really understanding what your values are and what it is that you'll you'll take and you won't take. I think sometimes we always go, go, go that we don't even understand ourselves as much as we think we understand ourselves. Um, one truce test of that is would you want to be your own friend? And, you know, thinking about what these things are. Once you understand what your values are, what you value, and what your values are, which, you know, are different things, right? Thinking about what's important to you versus what are the things that you will not tolerate or go against your moral compass, the clearer that you are on that, the more you can recognize when it's happening. Because I think we all walk away from situations and say, uh, that didn't feel good. I just don't know what about it didn't feel good. Well, the more you work on yourself and have this clarity of who you are, the more you'll be able to pinpoint what exactly from that interaction, that meeting, that that discussion didn't sit right with me. And one thing I'll say is working on ourselves and understanding our values and what we value is very different than trying to figure out a straight linear path to something that we want. All of my life, these things that I've been able to do, that I've been blessed to do, have come out of an unlikely source. I never sought out to go to Harvard Kennedy School. Um, I never thought I'd be able to get an MBA. I didn't even think I would go to a four-year college, right? So these things happen because of how hard I worked, but also being open to there's not a linear path for folks sometimes, especially people that the system can be against. So being able to, again, understand yourself and know your values is critical, but do that while being open to, hey, you know, this is where I'm at right now. Doesn't mean this is where I'm gonna be in 10 years. And the only way that I can get somewhere else is if I do a good job in what I have in my hands right now. Because you can't say, oh, this is not where I want to be, so I'm gonna do a sucky job. And the other thing is, I was a bartender for 12 years. I do believe everyone in their life should be a server or something like that because it helps you deal with people in real time. I mean, this generate generations now are able to text without even hearing someone's voice. Um, I've never in my life seen so many people that are able to avoid difficult conversations, right? And so being able to have that practice is not comfortable. But trust me, it will set you apart and it will really garner your leadership skills when you're able to say, hey, that doesn't feel right, something's not right about that. I need to say something. Um, and when I say something, it's not gonna be pleasant, it's not gonna be, oh, she's great, you know, you're gonna get pushback. But being able to sit in that discomfort, the more the way you can do that the best is understanding who it is that you are and what you value and what your values are.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think another key component is also having empathy with that as well, because it's hard to have these hard conversations and be uncomfortable in these moments if there's not some level of empathy that goes into that and trying to meet people where they are and just approaching things with kindness. And you brought up a great point of how many people have been able to avoid difficult conversations. I've encountered a few myself, and I'm lumped in with that generation as well that you're talking about. So I completely understand, and I think a lot of these things just come with time, and often, you know, we hear a lot of the same stuff over and over, and we may think that they're cheesy, but it truly does just come with time, and it's easier said than done. Um, but I do appreciate you for sharing your story and sharing your insights. And as we come to the end of this episode, I have a signature question that I ask, which is what's one piece of advice you would give Gen Z to go out and diversify themselves?

SPEAKER_00:

To diversify themselves. And the this this same advice I would use for becoming a leader, um, for understanding yourself better, also for diversifying yourself, like you asked. I want to attribute this to Louis Pasteur, but that may not be correct, but I'm thinking it is. Um, and again, I heard this from Governor Duvall Patrick, who I talk a lot about. Um, but the quote is learning to listen without losing your temper or your self-confidence. Sometimes we hear things and that imposter syndrome comes over and we're like, how are they so smart? I wish I knew that. I should have known that. That's a problem, that's problematic. But then we hear things and we say, Oh my gosh, that's an idiot. They are so wrong. That's problematic too. So being able to learn to listen, even when you don't agree, without losing your temper, but also without losing your self-confidence, I think it's something that I think about constantly, and it helps me relate to other people. It helps me understand the context and the situation. Sometimes you can just shut things down because how adversarial you think they are. But when you do learn to listen without losing your temper or your self-confidence, I think it can take you a long way.

SPEAKER_01:

That's great advice. And I've never thought of it that way. With, you know, sometimes you will hear a thought or you'll hear the way someone thinks, and you'll just be like, What in the world are they thinking? Where did they get that idea from? And I never thought of it as problematic. So thank you for opening my eyes.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, I can practice that myself. There are people that I'm like, you clearly never lived the life I did, right? But also I never lived the life they did. And so, you know, we all are humans on this planet. And at the end of the day, we all want the same things. We want to feel safe. We want our kids to feel safe. We want to live in an environment where we have the opportunity to move up if we want that opportunity. Um, and so again, the more you learn to listen with those attributes, the more you can learn, hey, why does he or she think that way? Well, let's break that down because underneath all of that, there will be common ground. It's just that people don't take the time to get to that common ground because they just hear things and, you know, shut it down. And one last thing I'll say too, Raven. Sorry, I know we may be over time, but when I mentioned, you know, this generation and, you know, not being able to have these difficult conversations, what I should add is that that's become the norm to where no matter what people's ages, they say, hey, I live in an environment where I don't have to, you know, have these difficult conversations. And I'll give you an example. When I first went to Harvard Kennedy school, I had never set foot in Boston in my life until my interview. And all I've heard is, oh, it's up north, it's fast paced. These people, they're borderline rude. They just tell tell it how it is. And I'm like, okay. And they speak what's on their mind. And I got up there, and it was so many passive, aggressive people. And people just were not saying the elephant in the room. So I would just feel uncomfortable. I'm like, can we just call this out? Blah, blah, blah. Can we just do this? Blah, blah. Well, why do you say that, you know, you don't want you say we can't do it that way because we haven't done it that way before, but then you say you want innovation. You can't have one, you know. And I've had a white male ask me, do you follow conflict, LaShawn, or does conflict follow you? And I'm like, Are you serious? But it was because the culture up where I was at that place and Harvard was so, we're not gonna talk about things. And I was like, What are you talking about? I'm a southern woman, and I thought that you all would be so open to speaking the truth and saying what's on your mind, and I realized you're not, and I didn't mean to come up here and shake things up, but we have to, we got to get out of this bubble. And so I remember someone really thinking that I was somewhat aggressive. And I, you know, it took me time to realize hey, this culture has just gotten to a place where people weren't having these difficult conversations, they'd rather go on as if things are okay so that they don't have to have that short moment of discomfort. But what you're doing is creating a freaking lifetime of discomfort, right? And so being able to, I don't know, see that. So I felt like I was fighting against, you know, a bunch of people when all I wanted to do was have this difficult conversation and move on because I was committed to the work. So let's put it out there, let's do this thing, and then we can move on together. But so when I say that people don't have these difficult conversations, it's not just the younger generation, it has become the norm in many organizations. And I think that's gonna come to a head at some point.

SPEAKER_01:

I think you brought up so many good points and just the avoidance style and even the microaggressions and the passive aggressiveness and just everything that I think we've all been kind of avoiding, or we've all kind of been thinking, it's just slowly starting to come to a head, like you were saying. And we're slowly realizing, I think, as a society that we need to start addressing things or start addressing elephants in the room because we don't want them to explode and end up boiling over. And I'm very grateful that at least Keenan Flagler, I feel, has done a really good job of fostering those types of environments where you are open and there is a safe space to come and talk about certain issues. And with me being on the community equity and inclusion board, I I feel that the students are having more of a voice and we're starting to be able to advocate for ourselves, which is something that I'm very appreciative of. So I'm very interested to see how it'll change or how my experience will sort of shift once I enter in the workforce. And then even if I do plan on going to graduate school, like how it'll change there as well.

SPEAKER_00:

And you know, I think as women of color, we're sometimes afraid of being called the angry black woman. Guess what? We're that whether we say something or not. So you might as well say something. You'll make your life better, you'll live more in your values. So I had to release that. And there were so many times I said, I'm not gonna say anything. I don't want to stir up stuff, I don't want to be the angry black woman. Well, sometimes some people see that way, regardless of what you say. So you might as well be true to yourself.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. That is so true. And I think that's a great note to end on. Just always be true to yourself. And no matter what you do, whether it's good or bad, people are always gonna have something to say. So just stay true to yourself and just have no regrets. And once again, thank you so much for coming on. I'll be sure to put your contact information, so your LinkedIn and your email in the bio below if anyone would like to reach out to you. Uh, thank you all so much for listening, and I'll catch you next time on Diversify.